Septuagint VS Masoretic Text - 100K Subs - Ammon Hillman Kipp Davis Mythvision - Gnostic Informant

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• Septuagint VS Masoretic Text - 100K Subs - Ammon Hillman Kipp Davis Mythvision - Gnostic Informant
  • Opening from Neal / Gnostic Informant
  • ammon kipp and mythvision join the call
  • Ammon Presents - sabachthonei - spoken by Jesus while on the cross
  • Presentation over
  • Kipp turns off his video
  • Kipp drops off the call
  • Derek's video drops off the call
  • Derek's video rejoins the call
  • Ammon is visibly smelling his armpits and breath like they stink
  • Ammon is visibly holding his nose at the bad smell
  • Ammon presents a fragment - Zeus Hades Helios Dionysis
  • Neal and Ammon study greek 3 times a week
  • End....

Opening from Neal / Gnostic Informant

00:00

Neal: welcome back everybody and thank you for joining me as I haven't been live in a while I've been just kind of focusing on solo content with a few interviews here and there I got a lot of stuff that I've been working on to obviously I had some things happen last month that sort of stopped all work for a little bit so it was kind of out of things for a little bit but just hit 100K and I figured what's a better time to go live than when I just hit 100K but and first of all I want to thank before I say the next thing I want to thank everybody that's here watching and who's been watching leaving comments and super chats and supported me since the beginning and people who just got here in the last three months thank you for you know that your support as well everybody is just I never would have thought ever that I would ever I remember thinking to myself if I ever get like 10 000 Subs that'd be amazing but never did I think I would ever pass that but really really really really grateful for everybody we try my air conditioner off you probably hear that hopefully you didn't hear that so before I start I want to say I don't just go live for no reason just to you know pop champagne or something like that I like to have a topic and I brought some of my good friends here Derek from mythvision Dr Kip Davis who is a PhD in Dead Sea Scrolls and Hebrew studies and then Dr Amon who's a PhD in the classics and philology of Greek and Latin and so the topic we're going to discuss is no it's not debate or anything we're just four people getting together and talking and giving what we know and what we think on things topic is the Septuagint versus the masoretic text for anyone who doesn't know what that is it is the Septuagint it's the Greek Old Testament it originally was supposedly put together under Ptolemy the second the son of Ptolemy the first Ptolemy Soto Ptolemy Philadelphia's and he commissioned according to Josephus and a couple other sources he commissioned a man named Demetrius valerium who is from the line of Plato and Aristotle who was kicked out of Athens due to some political stuff went down to Alexandria and that's that's what Josephus says as other people say that this guy was collecting all the books in the habitable world and he came upon these laws of the Jews that he thought were just they just had to be translated and so I've always been told that this is what happened that Moses and Abraham are just these two figures that lives in Israel and everyone knows who they are of course they do these are the everyone in Israel knows who Moses and Abraham is and everyone and even everyone knows who King David is like how can you not just think it's King David and that I just was under the impression this is what I you know learned growing up being a Christian and then one day the the Greeks decided that they had enough of these Pagan Pagan world and all the Greeks believed the same thing about God they all they all believed in the same pagan theology there was no like variances between different philosophers or pre-socratic I didn't know any of this stuff I'm just thinking to myself the Greeks believe this the Jews believe this and then one day the Greeks came along and said we're going to translate all those amazing texts by those by those Hebrews and we're going to put them in our language and this happened in the third Century BCE and then you know two centuries go by and Christianity sort of comes out of this this branch of Greek Christianity this is what I thought with that being said that was wrong there are there is definitely more nuances to this and it might be more gray than black and white there must be some some things pointing to the ideas that the Greeks themselves added to this this world this monotheistic theology that arises in this time period that it might not just be the what what I was told like you know everyone knows who King David is of course they'll do and that it could this could be something different and so I got some people here that are waiting on the bottom we're going to talk about this we're going to go back and forth and show the what the scholarship consensus is and Dr ammo wants to give his wants to show some show us some stuff and some texts like job and Genesis that he noticed that he thinks point to there being native Greek so let's take a look at it all and let's wait let's let's weigh our our options here and let's roll that intro let's get back to it

ammon kipp and mythvision join the call

5:09

Neal: welcome back to the Gnostic Informant, and you are about to attain a TrueGnosis™. And so with that being said, welcome everybody who's here Derek/mythvision podcast Dr Kipp Davis and Dr Amoan from LadyBabylon. All their links are in the description, so if you haven't subscribed to any of them, go in there right now, and go and hit that subscribe button for all of them. so do that. And I don't know where to start with. Derek, you and I have been, so this is, I want to say this, the two experts are below, we got here an expert in Dead Sea Scrolls in Hebrew stuff we got an expert in the classics and the Greek stuff. Derek and I are truth Seekers, we're students of the of the people below us. You know, I should put them above us actually, because, you know, we're just....

Derek: there you go, give some symbolism to this episode,

Neal: anyways Derek I understand

Kipp: standing on the shoulders of giants

Neal: Derek I want to get your thoughts on where where you're going. Where you're at, with you, you've done videos recently on the subject of could it be that the Septuagint came first and so and I know you're not dogmatic either way and then I want to get Kip Davis next because I know Kip Davis is he's coming with her with this consensus Kip Davis is very careful about how he does things he's not going he's not he does you're I want to get kipped because Kip I know what you're going to bring to the table is the scholarly consensus and you have some some examples of things that point to there there probably were Hebrew text before the Greek and then we're gonna go with Ammon because ammon's challenging that I had a sneak peek at some of his stuff and it's it's good damn good but Derek Derek I want you to I want you to start there okay so

Derek: first things first on behalf of Kipp, I know he doesn't do everything consensus, he probably takes minority positions here and there. so just to give him the benefit of the doubt, it's not like every single things

Kipp: consensus across the board, I just look for the majority opinion. and that's right .... (laughing)

Derek: no, but I needed to say that because someone's going to take that, in like, probably run with that. I know that Kipps brought up some ideas that I've always been blown away with, and it's like, oh that's really cool. I'll just tell you where I'm

Kipp: actually we did that the last time... sorry I talk too much, but the last the last time I was on Neil's Channel, I was I was presenting on a very non-comm consensus view of a particular topic

Neal: and the top 22 thing when you came on here we talked about that, you're like this is the concensus, right. now, and I do not think this is true. so I sh I'm glad that you pointed that out there I I mean for this particular subject yeah yeah I get it you're right you're right

Derek: no I totally agree with you and I just wanted to spell that out for our audience so they understand it's not like consensus versus non-consensus as if it's like this guy's just gonna like you said, follow that plane in every situation. for me right now I'm doing a series on origins of the Bible. and it's taking my heart and soul to produce, literally everything I have in terms of just time energy, effort. all of that. and when I started it, and I'm not saying I won't do this more, as the series unravels, but when I started it, I look for the most ancient antecedents for what the series is. Is taking Bible characters, stories, narratives and such and looking for where the authors of the Bible may have gotten these ideas and then reworked them for their own narrative and so we just call that a mythical antecedent and so I found okay ancient Sumerian like Mesopotamian Acadian and stuff is clearly where flood myths come from like there's no doubt and you might say Egyptian flood myths Also may have played a role but that's the Nile and it's not negative in fact the flood of the Nile is a positive thing in their Mythos even though they describe the goddess as like this bloodthirsty being, it's actually a good thing that the flood comes. whereas it's a negative thing in Mesopotamia. and Scholars like Joshua Bowens written books on this where he's actually referencing all the major players in the field. that show tablet 11, is used with Noah releasing the three birds. things like that. and what I noticed, in the consensus, as we lead into why I'm going the path I'm going, is this the consensus typically on this argument in Genesis Justice one point as I've been doing my series is when they don't find it in the Mesopotamian or ugaritic material they stop and they go all right well anything beyond that is really almost a creative initial creative part of the author of The Bible's own Genius of like inventing this part for example the genealogies we find and and Genesis 10 and 11. we see certain interesting things like Noah is the first person to plant a Vineyard. you don't find this in Mesopotamian mythology, so I started hunting and going "well where is it?". and I found other Scholars who actually suggest that it's found in the Greek world, and you can find like Ducalian's son had a dog, planted a stick, and that's the first Vineyard. and so you start finding and guess what, this happened right after the flood, so as soon as a flood happens Ducalian literally has a son who has a dog who ends up planting the stick, and it creates a Vineyard. and so it's a different narrative. then there's names and stuff in that genealogy that kind of connect like J-Fed actually is kind of the forefather of what became the Greeks, later. and stuff. and so I started going, okay, hold on, there's something more than just Mesopotamian and ancient near Eastern stuff. the Greeks probably play a role and the more I started looking, I realized and you know, I know, Kipp knows all about the the minimalist but a lot of the guys like Nils Peter Lemke looking at Thomas L Thompson actually considering and seriously thinking about what they're saying, and then of course Russell Kamirkin, it is a really drastic hypothesis that if if he's right that the authors of the Bible know Plato and not the other way around because it's been accepted unanimously through history by Church fathers by the Jewish writers Josephus you've got Philo of Alexandria they literally claim Moses was copied by Plato now you have to ask the cell yourself when you hear that what are they conceding they are conceding someone's copying someone so I started looking are there reasons why they would suggest one knew the other and there's good reasons they argue and document however they want out the argument that Plato copied Moses

Neal: yeah. real quick, if I can jump in real quick, Derek. I just want to say something about that. Plato... it's possible that, I'm just throwing, I'm just saying this, anything's possible. Was it possible Plato knew who Moses was? yeah. however let's be strict about the sources what do they say? does he ever mention Moses? no. Does he ever cite the Hebrews or Israel? no. he never does. now you might say, "well maybe he didn't want to". "maybe he wanted to claim that as his own". well Plato has no problem citing Zoroaster, or the Egyptians, or the Babylonians, he loves the Chaldeans.

Derek: And Egyptians big time.

Neal: he got his knowledge from traveling in the world, and going to Babylon and Egypt. same with Pythagoras. that's what they say about Pythagoras, I don't know, I can't find Pythagoras's text. but they say Pythagoras traveled the world. he went to Babylon, he went to Egypt, they love that Pharisitees says I got this from the Phoenicians, the Phoenicians taught me this. I love sighting outside sources, and so it's, I don't, I just don't buy the effect that Plato borrows from Moses, but never mentions him once. I think that's, I don't, I'm not buying that,

Derek: right. and I don't want to go on and on and on because I can about this but it's important to point out this discussion that I think Amoan and Kipp are going to have will be an interesting exercise to considering which one came before the other and will we walk away saying maybe there's a case where both maybe there's a certain version of something that came earlier and then like you know is it great like

Neal: as i was saying, the Hittites were a big influence on Greeks, and the Levant. I mean maybe they had some like I'm just I'm all I'm trying to be is on as less as not being dogmatic as possible Right looking at everything here

Derek: And just admit I think everybody would probably agree that the story we hear about Soter, you know, the translation. In all 70 Jews just somehow miraculously had everything in common and it came out. that probably is propaganda. and so I'm, yeah.

Kipp: I believe that 100%.

Derek: well I knew you would Kip no so we're on the same page and I just, I just want to say and just emphasize I'm doing something that I know is radical that is not accepted among like you go to Mark s Smith or you look at these guys they're all delving in this ancient world that I think both the Greeks and the Bible authors are inspired by I just think the Greeks and and and their influence is not accepted and it's ignored more than it should be evaluated in my opinion but that's my that's literally all I have to say

Neal: Okay Dr Kipp, before I want you to take it away for as long as you need, to explain, to give your, well you know I do honor your education, and what you know, and I really want to get your thoughts on this, but before I just want to read something real quick it's from a peer-reviewed article in 2005 by Sean Hopkin it's called The Psalm 22 16 controversy you and I have talked about Psalm 22. and there's a reason why I want to read this first before you go because I want to sort of plant a seed in the audience to keep this in mind while both ammo and Kip are discussing this I'm gonna put it on the screen I'm also going to read it for people listening it says:

Neal: now your Septuagint that you pull up online, anybody... if you Google the Septuagint in Greek and you pull it up what you're getting is a mixture of three different manuscripts: codex vaticanus, codex sinaiticus, and the Codex Alexandra-kiss, or whatever. those are the three main Bible-approved or a church-approved Septuagints from the fourth and fifth century (CE) so I mentioned in the beginning, the story is the Septuagint was put together in 270 BCE that's almost 700 years later there's a lot of time has gone by since the creation of the Septuagint and the Septuagint that you and I have access to. So, and that brought the psalm 22 is a big example where it looks like it's a prophecy of Jesus but then you look at the manuscripts and you're like wait it doesn't say that so I just wanted to point that out what we're dealing with is so the waters are so muddied at this point it's so hard to tell where's which way is it going because we've had so like we don't even know if the Septuagint that we have is the one from through 270 BCE. and I doubt it is I doubt I mean I bet you there's a lot of stuff that's still there I'm not saying it's completely different but there's there's going to be changes so that's what Kips Dead Sea scroll series actually documents a lot of that but you know in terms of the in terms of the masoretic and the Dead Sea Scrolls you know he he but please Dr Kill, kill us ....

Kipp: there's Greek bible manuscripts that were discovered in the Judean desert, just so everybody is aware, of that. one of the interesting thing about ah I don't have the the the statistics in front of me now, or much of the information, but one of the interesting things about at least some of the Greek manuscripts, Bible manuscripts that were discovered at Qumran, is how much more like the masoretic text a few of these are, than their Greek Septa-gint counterparts. (notetaker: this is what Dr Hillman tells us, and is one of the reasons he thinks that is evidence for a propaganda campaign). Which is pretty wild, actually! but yeah! So I guess, to start, I maybe... maybe we need to clarify what we're talking about here, because I think there's probably two different questions. The way Derek sort of opened up and and presented this, was in view of the question "is there Hellenistic influence on the writing of the Old Testament or the Hebrew Bible, or even let's just fix it to the pentateuch". And I would say I think that's that's entirely plausible. This isn't a question that I've spent a lot of time exploring, just at the outside. so I'm coming into this as as kind of a newbie. so, but that's a different question, than I think, the way that.... that's a different question than was the Old Testament originally written in Greek and then translated into Hebrew

Derek: me and Neil don't care which really came first. or not at the end of the day, it'll be an interesting exercise to have you guys do this, but we don't care, because I still think even if it was written in Hebrew, the narratives... I see Greek stuff that I can't imagine (why it's in there...), like, the Greeks were borrowing from the Bible, I see the authors doing this (borrowing). you know what I mean so that's that's my two cents I had to put that in there so whichever came first no skin off my back

Kipp: I want to say "I don't care". but I think deep down, I probably do. just because my Greek is not nearly as good as my Hebrew. so, you know if I have to go back to reading Greek all the time, then I'm in trouble. but I will say, if this is the question, "was the Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament, or the pentateuch, a Greek text?" I think that's very challenging. and the way I look at this, I look at this from two perspectives: I look at this from the perspective of language, because there are aspects of the Greek text which strike me as very strange, if it came first and the Hebrew translated it.

Neal: now can you did you bring any examples of that I would love to see it. if not...

Kipp: a few. so first of all I think relative to some of the names I think provide some issues. so the we're all familiar with the name of God, Yahweh. Yodevavhey (yod, hey, vav, hey (י-ה-ו-ה) in the Hebrew. oh yeah, Ammon likes this. and I know I've had. I had this. by the way Ammon, it's nice to meet you, we've never met except, for like back and forth in the comments a little bit, so hey there. (laughs)

Ammon: hi

Kipp: and I know that there's an etymological discussion to be had here, but from my perspective that's not even really what I'm getting at. The thing that puzzles me is how, if you're starting from a Greek text, how the word Kurios (greek: lord of the realm; one of many gods) ended up becoming Yahweh in its Hebrew counterparts. If the Hebrew is in fact translated from the Greek. so that's one. but there's a couple of other ones too. something like the name Adam. when you look at when you look at the story of Adam and Eve, the second creation story in Genesis, chapter two and three. the male figure, the first human in that story is "Ha Adam", that literally means "the man" and it's an obvious direct play on the Hebrew word for "Earth" or "land" which is "Adama" and yet within the Greek text, you have these words translated, the Greek text names the figure "Adam" and then it translates the word for the "land" as Gaia. what is it now, help me out here, I have to go back and look, because remember my Greek sucks!

Neal: the earth guy in Gaian?

Kipp: so it's strange if this is a Hebrew translation of a Greek original, that strikes me as very odd. why would, and how would, the Semitic speakers / writers arrive at this play on words. from this great concept that's not reflected within the Greek, and it's these sorts of things that that appear in all sorts of elements of the text. I'll bring up another one here, let me see if I can just find it here, this is the, what is it, Genesis, Genesis chapter 3 verse.... let's see here, sorry guys, I'm not prepared, no it's Genesis 4. There's a famous story in in Genesis 4 about about Cain and Abel... there's another one right? the name Cane is derived from the verb, or I should say, within the Hebrew text there's a clear relationship between the name Cane, Kay-Enne, and the verb that appears in that same text there. Kay-Enne again which means to create or to acquire, or to own. so these are just some of the things that when I look at it, it certainly looks to me like a Hebrew original text complete with these these obvious clear alliterations and compositional devices, wordplay, that doesn't translate into the Greek. and there was the last one, I wanted to bring up here, was this one here. if I can find it, it's in the, it's after, uh Adam... sorry, after Kane kills Abel God curses him, and it says there's an awesome example of a of a Hebrew uh literary Artistry here if I can ever find it. So if you take it. a okay I think it's in, I think it's in chapter four, verse 11. you know what, I don't know if that's it, shoot. I can't find it. but there's this beautiful expression within one of the texts that says How does it go, it's basically "if you shed the blood of a man by your own hand, of a man, your own blood will be shed" and within the Hebrew it provides it's constructed within this very very tight, very obvious it's like a it's like a poetical unit so is it before I get it sorry

Neal: was it in chapter four of Genesis? I have it right here

Kipp: I don't know I can't find it.

Neal: it's all right. I'm just wondering

Kipp: I think it might be. but I can't find it.

Derek: so you're suggesting I know Dr Kipp is that that phrase that it's almost like this is a native phrase from that language and it doesn't seem to be a translated it's in thing it's an element of poetic artistry that rolls off the tongue in such a way when it's spoken in Hebrew.

Neal: so you're saying, so when we read Aesop's Fables, and the character's name often represents or reflects the stuff they're doing in the story, like a person named. his name was uh you know

Kipp: yeah there's there's some of that. but this is a little bit different. this is actually something I highlighted in one of the very first videos I made when I did my video responses to Michael Jones, of inspiring philosophy. I highlighted this phrase just because it's such a neat clear example of what we would call like like a true chiasm but it only works in in the Hebrew just on the basis of the Semitic syntax right and it's one of those things that if you if it's spoken in the in the Hebrew language you can hear it and which so now this is driving me crazy because I can't find it because if I could find the damn thing I would you know speak it and you would hear it but

Derek: let me ask you this, because I know Amoan's got like a thing together, he's going to try and do, to show the Greek. I'm wondering if during that, while he does his presentation, if you can come up with some things. because I have some interesting questions I'd like to ask, based on what I hear Amoan's.... That I know we could dive in deeper about this and kind of like ask questions about it...

Neal: What's interesting about the etymology of Adam and Eve, when you look at it in the Greek, it almost looks like because if you look at the how do you spell Hades in Greek: Alpha Delta, you know with the with that, HUH!, the breathing, what do you call that, the aspra. so then his wife is Persephone who's chant is Eua, Eua, and then you're like oh, she's the one who bites the pomegranate, she gets stuck in hell, you're like oh shit, now all of a sudden the Greek looks like it's got some native stuff going on.

Kipp: are they reversing the aspirant then on those names

Neal: I don't know, Amoan, what do you think about it?

Ammon: let me just step in, ambulance 9-1-1 call. I'm coming at this as a classical philologist, and I'm a linguist. what you're talking about is idiom. that's the word that you're looking for. not artistic phrase, you mean idiom.

Kipp: ...no actually I mean we think...

Ammon: hang on hang on hang on.... Adam is, you would say "it's a Hebrew name", because why? "it means Earth next to it" and that's exactly what they did, since the Talmud was made, that's exactly what they did. The problem is, Adam is a name in Mycenean Greek. Which is from 600 years after the earliest proto-hebrew scratches on anything. yeah.

Kipp: so, I'm just trying to understand the way this works out then. It starts in Greek, this story? and then it's translated, it starts in Greek and it's translated into the Hebrew?

Ammon: yeah yeah no it thank you that directs us back to the path that I wanted to be able to contribute tonight.

Kipp: I'm not sure if I have anything to contribute, by the way.

Derek: it'll be a cool conversation, it'll create questions, right?

Neal: let me just let me just throw this in there ever look we're just chilling we're no if that's not good I know a lot of us are very passionate about this subject there's four people just talking about it like let's just let's just keep everything let's let's keep it that you know

Derek: can we hear Amoan's presentation? because then I'll have good questions I think we can you know dive into

Ammon: yeah we're looking at the evidence, right? that's all. let's look at the text, and let's figure out. are these Greek? you know, as a linguist... you'll understand this, as a linguist, you have to have a broad depth of knowledge so we're talking about the Septuagint, if you haven't read Homer... Kipp, have you read Homer?

Kipp: I haven't

Ammon: Okay if you haven't read Homer you're not reading the very basis of the grammarians language in Antiquity. that's probably not only that you gotta read lyric poets, you've got to read all sorts of playwrights and comedians, you've got to read really boring Aristotle until your brain is pouring out. In order to get to a point that you can identify Style. a trained classicist should be able to take a text that's just thrown to them, and say "where is this from? give me a hundred year window, stylistically". That's what a good classicist can do. That's what you have to do when you're editing ......

Kipp: I'm not a classisist though...

Neal: he's talking about anybody in general, It's not directed at you

Ammon: Not you Kipp, not you Kipp. So. As a classicist, you're coming at it from that scientific linguistic angle, right? So that's what gives me that authority to say "no that word Adam is far older". Now you believe it's from the word for Earth because that's what people said hundreds of years later.

Neal: So you're saying these are folk etymologies that derive from the text

Ammon: No, I'm saying they're out and out lies, that are not scholarly. They are meant, as they recognize at the time,.... because remember in the second century, This brilliant grammarian comes along, Julius Africanus. And he says wait a minute, "you guys are trying to translate this thing from Hebrew, it's in colloquial Greek, brah, it's not Hebrew". And Origin I think it was, at the time, says "there's nothing we can do", he says "you may be right, there's nothing we can do". right, oh okay! okay! well it's not me saying that "this Septuagint is not Hebrew", that's what they were saying a long, long, time ago based upon the science of the language. so that's what my presentation is about. and I just wanna give the audience a little flavor of the Greek that shows the text cannot be a translation and I want you to keep one thing in mind when you are translating you never translate with increased technicality right you never raise the level of technical expertise of your Source. you cannot make or pile in technicality. When we describe for example Noah's different floors the architectural term in Greek, they don't have it in Hebrew. right? Because everybody knows, by the way just, people, need to get this out there. The Hebrew vocabulary, the number of independent words 8000 at best, and quite a few of those are Hapax Legoma (unique words that only appears once ever, unknown meaning). So, 5000?

Neal: Kip you smirked at that because you Hebrew

Kipp: so I spend a lot of time looking at like when I'm I mean so many of the Hebrew roots are based in The Wider Canaanite languages, they're all there!

Neal: Which come from that Semitic side.

Kipp: yeah!

Neal: all that that whole area.

Kipp: it's not Indo-European!

Ammon: you've only got eight thousand, you've only got a thousand, Kipp. There are 250,000 plus, right? on the ancient Greek side. the level of technical expertise in Greek is so high, and the Romans would agree with Latin, with the same thing. That the Hebrew could never achieve the sophistication, and I'll show you that right now, with the text.

Neal: all right let's do this let's do this Kipp I know you're gonna Kipp's gonna have some questions, let's hold off on anything, let's let Amoan just go, for a couple minutes.

Kipp: Go Amoan!

Neal: and then let's ask our questions after Amoan brings up his evidence. let's go, let's do this.

Ammon: okay Neil. can you bring up the first Slide? the first, yeah I'm just gonna quote to you here,

Ammon Presents - sabachthonei - spoken by Jesus while on the cross

At 39:00, Ammon discusses sabachthonei, words allegedly spoken by Jesus while on the cross in a loud booming voice.

There was a dude in the land called aucitidus (Αὐσίτιδι). And the dude's name was Job (Ἰώβ), and this guy was what: alethinos (ἀληθινός), amemptos (ἄμεμπτος), dikaios (δίκαιος), theosebais (θεοσεβής). Only 3 of those are represented in the hebrew. One of those concepts is directly cut - theosebais (θεοσεβής), a greek word that goes back as far as greek does (e.g. 800BCE).

The problem that we get into is what do these words mean?
These are the roots that are being used in theosebais (θεοσεβής):

Greeks worship saba-zeus. This is not a new concept. Look at the verbs here

• σαβάζω - from the polaskian side, from the kolchis era. comes this saba root. Long before any sumerian.

What did the 1850's victorians figure out?

Σαβάζω is being used to εὐάζω. From LadyBabylon, That's the word being used to worship Bacchus!

It means to cry Euai in honor of Bacchus. From the Septuagint, Genesis, We know this is the Eua (εὐά / Eve) Zoe (ζωη / Life!), a greek concept, the water of life.

New to greek? There's no "v" in greek. In the greek old testament (septuagint) it's εὐά. The vowels are tuning those consonantal stems. The e on the end is just the way to address that εὐά. The digamma "ϝ" was taken out of the greek lanugage, used in mycenaen greek, drawn into the upsilon, it's the W sound. εὐά, 'wa'. If hebrew translated from the greek, where did the gutteral come from? backtranslate...

• theosebeia (θεοσέβεια) - is what this guy Job has, see that is that saba, that saba of zeus (or theos)

How does this translate on the masoretic (hebrew) side?

You just use an adjective for "being afraid", and you drop in Elohim.

Hebrew translation

3373 [e]	וירא (wî-rê)	and one who feared	Conj-w / Adj-msc
430 [e]	אֱלֹהִים ('ĕ-lō-hîm)	God	N-mp

Look, theosabeia (θεοσέβεια) is taken by the Hebrew back-translator, and done literally.
They have no internal concept of what theosabeia (θεοσέβεια) is, or saba.

Presentation over

Neal: What you're saying is, the word theosabeia (θεοσέβεια) is a technical term that means to fear God, or a religious feeling. It's a religious technical term. Look at the Hebrew, it looks like it's broken down to וירא (wî-rê) which means "one who feared God". You're saying it would be really hard to go the other way around, to translate those two words into theosabeia (θεοσέβεια).

Ammon: right, it would be impossible, Neil, because you would be adding a layer of technical expertise to something that's not there. if the Septuagint was translated, and this (hebrew) is the original you would never ever get the word theosabeia (θεοσέβεια), and, you wouldn't have an extra virtue (the alithinos in front) the Hebrew only has three. There's no Elohim there.

Kipp: oh I see yes you're drawing this from the from the the passage in Job.

Neal: the third line down all the right if anyone's watching, theosabeia (θεοσέβεια) so you're saying they took that word, the technical religious term, and they broke it down into two words in Hebrew. Veeray (wî-rê) Elohim ('ĕ-lō-hîm), that's what Amoan is saying.

Kipp: I don't have any problem with seeing connections to Greek within the Hebrew text, I just very much struggle to see that this is straight across a Greek Construction, That Was Then translated into Hebrew.

Ammon: what if I asked you what if I said, can you just take it from a guy who's been reading Greek for 30 years, and has read everything on the classical side and biblical side and that whether it's Church fathers talking about their Mucky muck or whether it's Julius freaking Caesar. Can you just take it from a guy like that, that I can pick up the septuagint, and read it, and I know exactly when it's definitely a Hellenistic text. It uses Hellenistic constructions. What do I mean by that? Little things, that you cannot do in Hebrew. For example: you take one root, and you put two different prefixes on it, and you have both versions back to back. Septuagint does that all the time, and what's funny is watching the Hebrew try to kind of like try to express that little gymnastics that they can't. All I'm saying is, this is a Hellenistic text.

Mythvision: you have an example you can give on that?

Neal: you did give one, the theosabeia (θεοσέβεια) broken down. I think that's fair.

Kip: like I said, so you're dealing with a word. I have no problem, on an etymological level some cross-pollination. I have no problem with that taking place. If you want to assert that, that's a bad word I'm sorry I don't mean it that way. But if you want to tell me that the idea of God-fearing is a Greek concept, yeah sure.

Ammon: no, that's exactly what I don't want to tell you. Because theosabeia (θεοσέβεια) is not God-fearing, as it was translated into the Hebrew, it is a very specific veneration of saba-Zeus, or Dionysus. Oracular rite, like you were getting in your telesterion, that Moses set up when the voice of God was appearing to him. It's the same system, it is Greek. It is not Hebrew, is it the same word. Do you mind if I do a check here?

Kip: Amon you should know this about me I have been told on Twitter that I'm a very very lazy scholar, so this is what you get, I'm afraid.

Ammon: I just want to be honest with you, Kip, and I want you to be honest with me, and if you're gonna say that you know the language you better have done your work.

Kip: Can I tell you that my Hebrew is much better than my Greek? How's your Hebrew by the way?

Ammon: Okay. I spent a year in Israel in an archaeological dig at megiddo. It was good enough to get along at a bar. But that was a long time.

Kipp: So here's the problem everyone: Amoan's Hebrew is about the equivalent to my Greek.

Ammon: Listen, Dr Kip for a minute to yourself. You said MY Hebrew. My Hebrew was Modern Hebrew, which has a vocabulary of about 60,000 independent words,

Kipp: It's a modern language, it's invented in 1920.

Ammon: It's flourished, it's doing fantastic right? It's doing okay. Classical Hebrew is 5 000 words long, it's five thousand words long.

Kipp: a modern language.

Ammon: yes yes

Kipp: modern Hebrew is not ancient Hebrew. So I'm just very curious, about this though. This expression Weiray (wî-rê) Elohim ('ĕ-lō-hîm), is not consistently translated. What's the Greek word, theosabeia (θεοσέβεια)? It's not. I mean I have an example here and I'm only just searching the Torah right here, I have an example here, in Genesis chapter 22 verse 12, where Weiray (wî-rê) Elohim ('ĕ-lō-hîm) is translated as

Ammon: That's because there's no word for elo......

Kipp: Ote Phobai Toun Theon (Ὅτε φοβῇ τὸν θεόν)

Ammon: Right, you see what happens?

Kipp: No! I dont!

Ammon: if the Greeks were gonna translate the Hebrew they would have hit that the same both times. they didn't, they chose not to, but the Hebrew can't afford to express that power so what does it do, it's the fear of God, over and over again. That's all "altar" the word for "altar" how many words for "altar" are there in Hebrew?

Kipp: why does the Hebrew writer of the pentateuch always use the same word for altar.

Ammon: he doesn't, you just don't read Greek, so you can't read it.

Kipp: I'm talking about the Hebrew.

Ammon: because they don't.

Kipp: it's always the same.

Ammon: because they don't have the language.

Kipp: they have a perfectly good word that they could have translated ba-mos with, they could have translated it with ba-ma, why?

Ammon: Hebrew is dead, they couldn't even translate angaloi.

Neal: so if you're saying Hebrew is dead, right? we go back in time, we're looking at the second century BC, and first century and the first, what they're using, Hebrew still, we know that like are you saying it's just used for religion or scripture? is that what you're saying? what do you mean by that, when you say Hebrew's dead?

Ammon: yeah, there's 500,000 Scrolls, at least, in Alexandria. Tell me how many of those scrolls are in Hebrew, Syriac, Aramaic, you're not going to find Jack. You're not gonna find Jack. This stuff doesn't exist. They have no literature, where is the Hebrew medical literature? There isn't any, because their dead language couldn't support it. They were all speaking Greek, their synagogues from the second century, why is there Greek all over the place? Because their liturgical language died, it was unable to stay alive in a living demanding world.

53:56

Kipp: I mean there's there's Hebrew manuscripts that date back...

Neal: let me ask you this I'm pushing back on Amoan now, because I'm curious: Why would they even make these translations into Hebrew then?

Ammon: for the same reason they said in Antiquity... (notetaker: I suspect he's going to talk about ancient authors here, criticizing the origins of the septuagint - yes, they exist. I'll try to remember to link them here)

Kipp: I actually can I just can I just throw in here and say that, I mean, there's clearly a Revival of Hebrew language During the hasmenium period. I think that's obvious. the hasmoneans were, what's the word I'm looking for, they were explicit about ensuring this revival. this is why, I think, within a number of the Dead Sea Scrolls you've got a new, I mean it's called paleo Hebrew, the script, but it's like a new form of the old Hebrew script that survives from the mid Iron Age, from like the the 8,7,6th century. but there's it's slightly different, though, right? so there is an, I totally, yes, I mean there is there is a programmatic intent to basically revive the Hebrew language, that takes place during the hasmanian period.

Neal: Derek you're muted, Derek muted.

Derek/Mythvision: I gotta ask a question for both gentlemen here and I don't know if this is relevant, you might see how this might be relevant to this discussion. as far as which came first, the chicken or the egg, I don't know, right? but, and I'm wondering if there's a mix of things happening, but my question is: when do you guys date the composition of the pentateuch? I imagine there's sporadic sources, that no matter when you date it, are going to vary on dates specifically which texts go back. or whatever. My question to you, Kipp and then it'll be to Amoan. Kipp, when do you think the composition of what we call the Bible, and I don't mean it in its full canonization form which is still molding even "post" (after) the time the Dead Sea Scrolls are being written, and all that. But, when do you think the pentateuch, you know the Torah all of this stuff, was actually in its final composition.

Kipp: Final Composition? That is such a complicated question

Derek/Mythvision: I know, but that's why this whole issue is complicated to me, because where you kind of put this might play a role in how this composition is being utilized and I imagine it's way grey-er and messier than....

Neal: I'm sorry I wasn't looking at the chat. Thank you A.F.D. for that Super Chat. Appreciate it. (reading a chat on screen from the audience...)

Neal: thank you for the super chat but I don't want to do well with questions yet I will come back oh so maybe I'll Circle back to this later, but for now we're just gonna go back to the topics.

Kipp: I've heard of that book, but...

Derek/Mythvision: sorry I don't want to derail you, and I don't want to over complicate the question, kipp, but I guess in the.... aiming in this whole "who came first" and what which one translated which, I kind of figure you would imagine like in the Book of Genesis: let's say Amoan can find certain words that in Hebrew have to break it down into three words to express, as he's been trying to point out, whereas the Greek has one word that kind of emphasizes the whole point and it's not having to elaborate on what he sees as it looks like more technicality but.... it's so complicated it's hard for me to wrap my head around on this whole discussion between you guys.

Kipp: I mean there is no question, that (Ancient) Greek (e.g. 1.6M words) is a much more sophisticated developed language than (Ancient/Paleo) Hebrew (e.g. 5000 words). I don't think that's in dispute at all. and I don't think that the complexity of Greek has any bearing on whether or not it's a translation of something, that's from the Hebrew. so I mean I, I just don't follow that argument.... (sorry I should I also should probably not uh pay attention to the chat here, sorry ignore it, I should definitely ignore the chat) but I mean, so, virtually I mean, virtually all the Hebrew words that we have within the Bible are words that we know from other Canaanite literature. Many of the stories are so.... so they literally look, word for word, exactly like, there are phrases within Hebrew that look exactly like, within the Bible, exactly like counterparts from Ugaritik from Ugaret Ras Shamra that are dated to like the 10th 11th 12th century BCE. But there's, I mean there's there's more to it than this, as well, because we actually have surviving semitisms within the Septa-gint. And I guess I mean, for me, the one that, the one that, that I think is, is, perhaps the most prevalent and obvious, is the infinitive absolute, and it... It doesn't make any sense if the, if the authors of the pentateuch are translating a Greek document that they would transform certain Expressions that appear there into Hebrew infinitive absolutes.

Derek/MythVision: and give us one example and then let's allow Amoan to give his.

Kipp: can I ask, does Amoan have an explanation for that?

Derek/Mythvision: well I'll let you guys talk actually. let's do that.

Ammon: Yeah. I just want to say that HooHah HooHah your question was "when is it written stylistically" the Septuagint not Septa-gint

Kipp: sorry I was, I was trained in the UK,...

Ammon: so I would say stylistically... again, if you just handed that to me, as a linguist, I would say look it has no elements of second sophistic Greek, it looks like it's drawing upon words from Likaphron, Calemicus, Theocritis. And that's enough right there, just those enough, of those three sources, to say okay we're securely within some kind of Hellenistic continuum, right? That's what I would say, I would say this thing smacks of Hellenistic weight. But, I would put this on, this little cherry on the top of my linguistic analysis, there is an air of sophistication that I would say, this composer... and by the way there's huge similarities linguistically between books all the way on one side and the other. It really looks like somebody, one person, sat down and composed this thing. Anywho, I'll let the scholars, so-called, fight over that kind of stuff. If you were to hand me that... Your question was, what year is it. What year is it, Derek? I would say, I'd feel very comfortable, putting it in the third or second century, first......????? I'd have to compare with, like, look at the Nikander, he's getting some Nikander, and 2nd century let's do 3rd and 2nd century, and that's what I notice. That's what I noticed, Derek, when I am looking up words, in using the Oxford... You can track their history. And the more I read the Septuagint... the more I know I'm getting references. Oh, you'll get some classical stuff, right? But heavy heavy heavy, so, his vocabulary or whoever's writing it... Their vocabulary is heavily heavily heavily Hellenistic. I would laugh at anybody who says this comes before then. It's completely out of style, we'll be completely out, it's not Attic, right? It's not classical. There's no it has no similarity with the lyric, right? Okay, so I would say stylistically, if a professor threw that at me, and I was a grad student, or something... I would say, okay, I'm gonna have to guess third or second centuries. How do I know that, Derek? Because John Scarborough, at the University of Wisconsin, who does medical history and drugs from the Greek, he was the one who pounded in my head, you have to read these Hellenistic authors. You have to get an understanding of their scientific vocabulary. So that you can compare it with Galen, because Galen was my man, right? So that's how I would answer your question: Third or Second century.

Neal: real quick let me jump in for a second. because it does feel like the way that, I'm just... Let's just stick with Genesis, as a single text. The way it's written, the storytelling, the style, the way it's written... It sort of looks like another, so looks like it comes from the post Euhemoris era where it's.... First of all, it's very well written. It has this slant towards: these things actually are historical. And it's not totally like Zeus is in the clouds flying around throwing Thunderbolts, it's like believable stories about the past. Mythologized stories. It feels you have aristic to me. But, also whoever is putting this together, has knowledge of the near East, going back to Hammurabi, because they're talking about eye for an eye, and tooth for a tooth. And you're seeing elements of ancient near Eastern,... stuff! I don't think you can deny that. That's what I wanted to start. I just wanted to throw that in there. Dr Kipp what do you think?

Kipp: I'm just very interested to hear Amoan tell me about how the why... sorry what was my question originally? I'm just I'm just very ...

Ammon: I'm not interested in giving an answer Kip, so let's just go ...

Kipp: you don't want to talk to me about the Hebrew? the infinity

Ammon: I think you're full of it. I think you're full of it, and I think you were sitting in the chat room, that you are an expert in Greek, and you said there's no way, there's no way... you're an expert in Greek, there's no way. bring it, or don't, Kip. bring it.

Kipp: can we go to like the passage

Neal: Dr Kipp, you've been pretty nice, Amoan, you don't got to be like that, man. You dont gotta tell him he's full of it.

Ammon: Honesty Neil,

Neal I think Dr Kipp actually thinks this, he's not ...

Ammon: I think it's gentlemen though, I think he's gentlemen. don't you Neil, I think it's gentlemen. Don't you think that if you're gonna assert an argument about the ancient Greek, ...

Kipp: I am asserting an argument...

Ammon: maybe you've read some ancient Greek

Kipp: I've... a little bit. but ...

Ammon: Have You?

Kipp: A little bit, yeah. so, okay, but then again, I mean, isn't it fair to say that your knowledge of ancient Hebrew is maybe not strong enough, to be making some of these assertions?

Ammon: yeah and that's why I tell everyone, when I have the septuagint. I have a Greek document. it's native Greek. it's native Greek, okay? yes my argument's not... I laugh at the Hebrew attempt to try to translate it. But I know that the one that's being quoted in the first century is the Septuagint. They're not quoting Hebrew. They're quoting Septuagint directly. So that's, Kipp, that's all I'm interested in, it's the actual text. Then I'm sorry, I'm sorry, if I get a little bit bent out of shape, but don't claim what you aren't. If you're going to stand up to the text and I....

Kipp: An expert in Hebrew literature is what I am, yes.

Ammon: you said the hasmodians were the ones who brought the Revival of literature. can you give me the....

Kipp: no! I didn't say that. I said the hasmannians revived Hebrew.

Ammon: yeah okay, and what does that mean?

Kipp: That means that they revived the usage of the script, the ancient script, in the expression of their sacred texts.

Ammon: So there are pieces of literature, great works of different genres of Hebrew, then, right?

Kipp: not many, no!

Ammon: yeah okay, how about one. how about one. so what do you get, what do you do... I don't have to listen...

Kipp: I also don't have to listen, maybe I should just go.

Ammon: maybe you should.

Kipp turns off his video

Neal: I didn't want this to turn into a debate guys. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, doctor. But he didn't, I didn't want this to happen. I just wanted you guys to tell me why you think this is,... I didn't want this thing... No more calling each other out for being... for being... for being full of it. No more of that stuff, yeah. let people what they have to say, that's it. that's all I'm asking.

Ammon: I'm perfectly happy, but if he misrepresents himself, he's talking about the text, Neil, that I read all day long for 30 years. I don't want somebody saying something that all of your guests will hear it, and they will think he knows what he's talking about. I have heard academics do this for years, for years, they do the same thing he's talking in circles, notice he doesn't bring any examples, right? That's not going to get us anything...

Neal: that's kind of my fault because I threw this on him real late. he didn't have time, he was doing stuff, that's kind of my fault, I'm taking... don't blame him for that, because I told Dr KIPP, like last minute, that we were doing this, he didn't have time, he had to go, he was, he had movies planned, and a dinner. He did not have time to go and get examples, that's my fault. I could have gave him more time, that's my fault. So don't, that's not, and I... Look, I think it's kind of, I think we probably should end this pretty soon, because it kind of is a stalemate in a way, because Dr Kipp's trained in Hebrew, he knows Dead Sea Scrolls, he doesn't know that much Greek. Dr Ammon knows a lot of Greek, doesn't know that much Hebrew. So they're both kind of just talking past each other, I think. I think Ammon, you brought a good example with the theosabeia (θεοσέβεια) zeus. Dr Kipp, I would love to see an example, if you had it, if you could bring one. I like, look, this is what I think mean, that me and Derek were talking about this. I think there's like a chance they both could be drawing from a common source, and that these are getting put together, at that time. So you probably have Hebrew sources laying around in Jerusalem or whatever, and then they're brought to Alexandria, and they're using these sources, maybe, that's, I'm just, you know, I don't think it's one. I don't think it's a black and white thing. I think this is a very muddied water thing.

Derek/Mythvision: the audience is chanting, the comments from the audience, oh. The Caesar in the Gladiator ring is always trying to make the crowd happy, okay? Can we move forward and not address each other in potentially derogatory ways, and allow the conversation to proceed. So we can keep the audience Happy, here?

Ammon: this is the greatest thing ever. By the way, this is the greatest thing ever. You guys are giving a forum for people to be able to Hash it out in sincerity. I felt my honor was impugned that somebody was telling a falsehood in my presence. That's all, that's all, guys. If you're gonna have the guts to stand up and say something about the sources, you better be aware of those sources

Neal: you guys disagree, that's not one of you is full of it. you don't have to say that

Kipp drops off the call

Derek/Mythvision: so stuff right now, that I hold to, or I'm even considering, that's probably not correct and I'm not being insincere. I'm like really trying to learn, you know what I mean.

Neal: I don't think Kipp was interested in continuing, to be honest. Honestly I don't, kind of, I kind of don't blame him, because he did, he didn't come here for that, he didn't come here to Duke it out, yeah. he didn't have a conversation about a really really hard subject, like, yeah. we're just people. like we're not.

Derek: I had some good questions I was hoping to get out, too, just to kind of get an idea in... and one of those was, I am being persuaded, I'm not fully convinced, but I'm being persuaded that the biblical authors, at least Genesis, you know, definitely through the pentateuch, I see some influences that make the most sense, the antecedent seems to be from the Greek world, I see them using Homer I see them using Herodotus, it seems in some ways, I see them using even Plato in some cases, and there's nowhere else in Antiquity where these ideas are found but in Plato, for some of these ideas. Which makes me go "where'd this come from" no wonder later on, you have the debate where they say "no they, Plato borrowed Moses, and..."

Neal: this doesn't get said enough, and I think it needs to be drilled in people's heads when they're... when you're telling me, when you're, when when Josephus himself is telling me that Demetrius Phalerium was involved in the process of the Septuagint. like you do, he's four generations, wait, it goes Plato, Aristotle, Theophrastus, and then Demetrius. he's from that, like you're telling me, we have evidence, like Derek's pointing out something that, you know, that about platonism and monotheism and the laws of Plato, and like, and the stuff that you see in Deuteronomy that lines up with the laws of Plato. like Plato has a text in laws where he says like Ganymede, who is the lover of Zeus, the boy lover of Zeus, is unnatural, and he has these inclinations of homosexuality's bad, that stuff you see that in Plato, you see that in Deuteronomy. So Derek's pointing this out like, I'm seeing a lot of Platonist stuff happening in the text. And then and then you have somebody saying, somebody from the line of Plato was involved in the Septuagint. I think that's something that should be brought up, whenever we bring this like we have a peripatetic / platonist, I just, it's all to me, it's all, they're all just Athenian Academy people to me, it's all this like, it's slight differences, whatever. peripatetic, it's what they call Aristotle- platonist is plato - whatever, but this guy Demetrius is from that line, from Athens, he goes down to Alexandria, and he's commissioned by Ptolemy to make this book. that's a big deal, you can't ignore that, I think it's wild that no one ever talks about that. you know??

Ammon: I think I think that's the historical background that you need that's so important. if you read some of those authors like Theophrastus, you would get a feeling for how Theophoresis is the same as the author or authors of the Septuagint. That's why I gave you that that time, the third and second century. Derek, your point about the platonic influences, yeah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! You know, somebody's... somebody's doing it.

Derek's video drops off the call

Ammon: Oh, did Derek, did he have to leave?

Neal: yeah he'll probably be back. but so yeah

Ammon: he's doing that

Neal: yeah... anyways, no I think there's something to be said about the Greek Hellenistic influences on the text, or at least when it's written, yeah. you know I don't have a problem, I got people talk about Persian period, I don't have a problem with that, I think it's possible, .......... extreme influence. I mean Plato himself cites zoroaster,

Ammon: yeah yeah.

Neal: so we have we know that the Persians have some influence on the Theology and philosophy of the day. so to me it's not like I'm I'm like look let's not be dogmatic, let's not just be like "I'm team Greek", "you're team..."

Derek's video rejoins the call

Derek: I think I was trying to exit Facebook, because it kept making noises, as you see. but yeah, I didn't expect that, I thought it was going to be a friendly conversation, didn't know it was going to be a debate, or turn into this, because I value learning from everybody, and I know Kipp's a good dude, I didn't want... you know... things to get derogatory like that, I wanted to ask Kipp, what I wanted to get to was, "do you think", and now it's kind of too late. Do you think that if we do discover that the authors of Genesis, let's just say through a lot of this material, were influenced by later authors, like Plato, if you found that convincing, which it's speculative, but I like, everything is speculative in ancient history, you know. It's the best guess, and we're doing probability the best we can to figure things out... If you were convinced that Plato was used by these authors instead of the assumption that later on becomes "Plato borrowed from Moses". If you were convinced that that Hellenistic, or even Plato and onward, influence was there, would that play any role? It doesn't prove one before the other but would that play any role, and maybe persuading his idea about the Hebrew going first. I don't know if it does, it may be irrelevant, but I wanted to ask him that and get into some of these...

Neal: Let's ask Amoan something, that I just to throw this out there, don't you think it's possible that there are sources from the people living in Jerusalem, because like the, I know you know, I know you think this is propaganda which I agree with, that that Ptolemy letter with the Aristides, how the Septuagint came about, it was a miracle that 70 people all said the same thing, we know that, we know it's all bullshit, but like, we, there's still some stuff you can read between the lines... you can get some data from this, so what I'm what I'm getting at is: Demetrius is collecting all the books in the habitable world, and don't you think it's possible that there are texts in Jerusalem that he Came Upon, and brought back to Alexandria, to copy and translate and rewrite?

Ammon: no I don't. from from the Greek itself, it is not a translation.

Neal: I'm not asking about that, I'm asking about sources being used to make a new text.

Derek: so to give it another way of saying Amoan, I find clear Greek influence in many ways in the narratives, I'm not a linguist, but in the narrative, right? I see structural thematic comparisons, that without a doubt are telling me that the Bible, and some of these Greek epics: Homer, Iliad, Herodotus, Plato, other things... they're talking! Someone knows each other, and I'm not sure who influenced the other, I'm leaning that the Greeks influenced this, you know, smaller group that were insignificant in comparison to them in the grand scheme of culture and Empire, and whatnot. but, I'm wondering because I see antecedents in Ugaritic in Phoenician Canaanite, I see Egyptian stuff, I see these influences, culturally linguistically, even law codes that come from, you know, Hammurabi, Other things. And I think what Neil is trying to get at, correct me Neil, is

Neal: oh you're right

Derek: ...these various cultural influences which I personally think the Hellenistic period really makes sense on why they were actually heightened it revived these ancient civilizations in my opinion but that's based on some of the reading I'm doing. well the question is: it doesn't... does it have to be Greek to the core thoroughly or can it not be a composition of various

Neal: and if we're going to go outside the Torah and go into the Chronicles and kings and all that then what are we doing we're talking about Kings from Armory down to Josiah??? like, why why would these people in Alexandria care so much about the history of this one place, if they're not using any sources from there? just doesn't make sense! there's got to be something at least, if at the very least they're using some sources, that's what I'm saying. what do you think

Ammon: for the people that say I am on drugs, shame on you, that's not nice!

Neal: don't read the comments dude what no seriously you know I like being in front of your audience I think this was a great opportunity and I think it sure I wish this could have been fun, not a clash. that's why I didn't want I just I was trying not to let that happen.

Ammon: should it be fun? should it be fun? I see what you guys are doing, and I see how you're laboring, you're sweating, and you're bleeding, to bring these texts back to us. Because let's face it, you guys aren't pushing an idea, you're not pushing to believe, you guys aren't making a church, you're not trying to make an ism, where people are going to say derekism, you know? and this is that you're not

Derek: (joking) you know I'm thinking about it, but, you know... (laughing)

Neal: I'm not team Greek or anything, I don't care, I'm trying to make the most sense, I want to hear from everybody,

Ammon: yeah. it's it's....

Neal: but like I don't think it's possible that you can just have somebody in Alexandria writing this with no sources at all, from Israel, or from Jerusalem, or something. I mean you have to have at least, the very least, there has to be sources that he's using, if not an older version, or something. I'm just throwing this, like don't you think.... why, like, let me ask you this: why would, I mean, let's say Demetrius is the guy that wrote this. just for the sake of argument. why is he writing about Omri and just Hezekiah, and why is he only writing about King David and Moses why is he writing about everything that happened. right? what does he care about Israel for, and if, unless he's got some sources, right?

Ammon: yeah no I'm just saying yeah no that's all great but see, as a linguist Neal, the base loyalty is to the language. if the language says that, and supports your argument, that's why I think what Derek is saying is right. When you talk about Eastern near Eastern elements, there's there's no doubt, yeah great! and people say what about Adon and Adonai and where is that coming from? and they always go back to the near east Semitic Semitic Semitic, ...

Neal: by the way

Ammon: ...in 5000 BC. That's when they're using it, they're you know, the Chalcolithic era (copper age, 5000 BCE) is when these terms are coming from, that's what the Greeks say.

Neal: I knew this was going to come up at some point I was hoping Kipp would still be here, but what do you, what is this, what am i showing on the screen? can anyone guess? or no. I'll just say what it is, but can anyone guess?

Ammon: it's cuneiform is it I'll guess yes but when is it written it's written during the time of Alexander the Great. it's just talking about Alexander the Great has died today. so for anyone to say that there's no use of this style of writing anymore, well, and this isn't the only example, there's tons of examples of scribes in Babylon still using this type of writing talking about events that happened in the time of Alexander the Great. now, after Alexander died I don't think they even, still, I think it's very little examples. I think, it dies out right away. but this, if you, you guys can, if anyone wants to fact check me on this, go look it up. in fact, Let me, let me show you the source that I'm using right now, to right here

Ammon: that gives me a Dereck.

Neal: the campaigns of Alexander. you can get this for yourself, this is the text that I'm using. that's this is from, this is a screenshot from there. it's Aryan and the scholar that put this together. James Rahm. if it's from the Robert Strasser Series. has images of cuneiform texts about Alexander. so what gives? like, what do we, how far back do we have to go, to say "oh it can't be written in the Hellenistic age" because they have so much knowledge of the Sumerians and they have so much knowledge of Babylon, it's like what about what about Barosis? Barosis is writing about Ohanis and Innana and the Ishtar and the Anunnaki all that stuff, in Greek.

Derek: right right right

Neal: oh I'm just I don't you know I'm that

Derek: and none of that proves which that that is the kind of because I'm not a linguist and I don't know the languages I don't understand that part, but these kind of ideas do leave that door open. I'm going, like, all right I could see a composition way later that is still utilizing Uga, Ugerik, Chaldean, you know, Phoenician Canaanite, Babylonian, you know, Acadian, the whole nine. even all the way down to the Hellenistic period, and the names, that a lot of like, for the longest, I was looking at Thomas L Thompson, the name of Abraham, and going into these patriarchal names, that many scholars for pretty much 2,000 years, have thought give the Antiquity of like validation to Abraham being really placed in the second century, or second millennium BCE, he goes to show those names were being used all the way down into the 4th Century BCE. And so you can't pin, this is why I wanted to have this exercise, okay?

Neal: I thought I found something, the other day, I was reading Job again, they're talking about the Chaldeans and they're talking about the Sabians or Saabians. These are two tribes from Babylon and Arabia and I was like, there it is! I finally found something I can anchor to. let's find out when these tribes live, well it didn't really help because both the Chaldeans and the sabians go back to the early Iron Age all the way to the late 100 BC so, like, you can't even use tribes The Book of Job is talking about, because it literally could be any time!

Ammon: and then you can add the linguistic difficulty of in the third and second centuries they called the Magi and the Cal D (Chaldean), they call them Assyrians, and it wasn't meant like a geographical or an Empire, it was meant those who follow the way of the Magus.

Neal: yeah yeah

Ammon: they do that yeah , you can see in the septuagint, they do that...

Neal: yeah, when I said that word Chaldean, my mind goes this is ..... In Hellenistic age they're using that word all the time to talk about people from Babylon, so I'm like wait a minute this is Job, this is supposed to be the oldest text, but then when I thought I found something that dates into the Hellenistic, sure enough, Chaldeans are mentioned by I think it's Nebuchadnezzar it's one of those there's a text from like Nebuchadnezzar or somebody that mentions the Chaldeans. so I'm like, damn, you can't even date it with that, because they're so it's such a like I don't know... you get my point, the point I'm trying to make is this is a really tough subject.

Ammon: and you know, I do want to say guys, I appreciate the Forum. the fact that we have to stand up for those texts is what I feel is my core. when somebody comes on and says you know the Greek doesn't reflect the Hebrew, because it's this. you know, do you, you know, you just have to know those texts, right? you have to know those texts. that's why it kind of... look! as somebody who studied Classics, and I studied with Emmett Bennett, who did the Linear B, he's the Navy cryptologist, who with Chadwick and Ventress, and those guys. they solved linear B. and in the process of working with him, I learned to track the languages, and when you have a Hebrew text, you have to have context. this thing is, okay, you're not dealing with a large Corpus. Remember when I told Kipp, I said, hey give me the name of one. There was a Revival. There was a literary Revival in the Hasmoneans.

Neal: well i would have said Macabees and Daniel were all written during that time.

Ammon: the language, yeah..... (laughing)

Neal: yeah Kip knows that obviously. I don't think you were, you guys were talking past each other that's what I think was happening. let's not talk about Kipp, he's not here either, to defend himself. but yeah

Ammon: yeah that's right. that's gentlemen

Neal: Kipp's not wrong! Maccabees and Baruch, uh, you get some new Proverbs being written in that time. you get some there are new texts being produced during the Hasmonean period. Maccabees and Daniel are the two big ones, so, I don't know why he didn't just say that. I think Kipp wasn't trying to come for, I mean he wasn't trying to debate with you. so you know, I'm just trying to whatever let's let's keep going, I want to get through these superchats, because I do it's been an hour and a half I think we said enough but plus we don't have anyone we're just talking now. so Derek anything else you want to say before we get through superchats?

Derek: you know congratulations Neil, thank you. you've worked really hard, I want to give that quick story, if that's okay, before you do Super Chat. just to tell how people how we met, (joking) we were in a back alley in a dark, no, I'm just kidding (laughing). so Neil had like what was it 400, 500, subscribers, 700, or something like that. you were pumping out, you had a lot of content, you were reading these really interesting heretical books, I love those books, and you know, you had a lot of audiobooks, and little you were just trying, you were doing your best, and you ended up hitting me up, I was like listen I'll pay you to do an interview

Neal: I was working at a factory at the time, oh I wasn't doing it for, I was just doing it for fun.

Derek: yeah you were doing it for fun, I started my YouTube channel as a hobby. it was never a full-time gig, and you were like, I'll pay you for an interview in a month. I'm a father, you know, husband, I gotta provide, and I'm happy to help, you know, give my time, and people who want to help me, and there was something about the interview that we did where I was like this guy has it I enjoy talking with him and come to find out we small talked without the recording on about having Addiction in our past struggling having legal problems because of addiction and you also had a brother who's going through the same thing well I have a brother who's going through the same thing like it was so much we hit it off and I was like look man if you like you have what it takes. if you really want this, like you can do it. and like, it was like, you and me connected at that point, and it was not the advice I've given to several other people who've done YouTube channels, where I've given the same advice to others,, but I could see something a little different in the way that you were that I knew you'd be successful if you put it in. dude your work ethic I mean, I'm dead serious, is impeccable, phenomenal. you are an extreme individual. and if people don't know that, I know that you work very hard. you're trying to figure out the answers, the truth, and you grew this thing, and for the longest I heard you always saying stuff like, Mythvision and Derek if it weren't for you I wouldn't be...., I get that compliment and I'll take that and Pat myself on the back for any help I have done, but Neil, today is your day to shine. Derek Lambert mythvision podcast did not give you 100 000 subscribers. I may have been some credibility for you in some way shape or form to begin with, but Neil you did this and so you earned it and you are going to the Moon my friend. you actually are the reason that my channel blew up to 150 000 subscribers so reversing the pat on the back. if you didn't start these documentaries and say hey I followed your path your turn to check mine and follow me I'm following you as much as you're following me on this stuff and

Neal: When I started, it started, you're like dude I want to start making videos like you're making them.

Derek: and they have been very successful. and it also allows me to hone in my craft and learn, not just from an interview with a scholar that I read their book, but like I have to edit in meticulous detail that makes me have to know the material that I'm doing, yeah. and so thanks to you brother, you're an inspiration to me, and I know that you're going to go places if you keep doing this.

Neal: thank you appreciate that

Derek: yeah man

Neal: the first one's from Pat Lollinger. "be careful it's not JUST Greek influences" I think he's and that's fair to say like

Derek: I told him I agreed, like I said there's several ancient influxes, but here's the thing, here's the interesting thing: Hellenism is imitation of the Greeks, right? The cool thing that I liked about the Greeks and this is in my documentary that I'm about to launch in my script that I haven't edited yet is that Greeks weren't ashamed of saying where they got their sources! The biblical author though, this is really, really one of my points on why I'm trying to say maybe Plato, I'm trying to convince people, maybe Plato's an influence in the Bible authors, that look at. I said this earlier. Tablet 11 from the Epic of Gilgamesh, the release of the birds, Scholars have long noticed this is Mesopotamian, and you could say Borosis actually in his translation, had this, so we know that it could have been a Hellenistic composition that actually influenced this Genesis narrative, but then there's Greek stuff. so I'm saying in the Hellenistic age, Imagine all of the known world coming back to life, in one... they were the Great facilitator of the Known World. they brought the best out of the Egyptians, the best out of the ancient civilizations that they conquered, and that's why I'm wondering if that's the period in which all of these various things are coming, in the text.

Neal: you okay, so we're taught, we're all, we're all, it's like the Greeks, the Greeks, the Greeks, Athens Athens Athens... but the world that Alexander set up or whatever, you know, the... you know, this. his generals started fighting right away, but still! This was a world where Greek was the main language that you use, for trading, and it was the lingua Francois of the day it was like English is now, I guess, you'd say. but it didn't mean that other place like, you still, if, you went to Carthage they're using Punic, if you went to Egypt they have Coptic, if you go to Armenia they had their own. Everybody had their local dialects, so I think it looks so obvious that It's All Greek. because that's where everything's Greek. Greek's everywhere, so I just, but I also don't think we, we can't forget, there are still local languages. And they're there, so I think it's something like that. and by the way someone mentioned in the comments somewhere that the Elephantine Jews didn't have a Hebrew Bible, I forgot,

Derek: yeah yeah they did not have a Torah, they didn't even mention Moses,

Neal: but even when Josephus tells the story about Demetrius, and then even in that letter from Dimitrius to Aristities or whatever, or ptolemydericities... they don't say we have a Torah we're going to translate. they say "the laws of the Jews" that's it! they say "the laws of the Jews", that's it! that's all! all they say is laws. they don't say any epic about Abraham, or anything. and then before all of this we have like, we have people citing Hecateus of Abdara, right? it's the guy who writes a story about Abraham and Moses, and what becomes Genesis. so I think you you already have sources in Greek, about Abraham and Moses, before Demetrius even does this.

Derek: that's the earliest Source we have, is Hecates of Abdera, and then Gamerkin writes in his book on Borosis and Genesis Minetho and Exodus something composition of the pentatuch... it's some long title. he writes in there like when you read that narrative it does not sound like Genesis, what I mean is, it's so different, that you're like: "this is our earliest attestation of Moses" but that was the confusion in the ancient world on why they thought Plato borrowed from Moses, well the text of the story in the Bible places Moses way way back. and in Antiquity they didn't go with like critical Historical Method on like: what does textual criticism suggest that Moses is a later composition... they just said "well if it says he's 1200 years old, we'll just say he's older than Plato, since we think Plato's 400" and then they said Plato borrowed from Moses because according to their narrative structure, that's how it looks. but we know you now to be cautious of stuff like that

Neal: if you go to book two or book 12 Jewish Antiquities by Josephus

Ammon is visibly smelling his armpits and breath like they stink

Neal: it starts Book 12 is all about the Septuagint. yeah you see you have that... I already know what you had highlighted. yeah yeah yeah this thing that in here that's gonna if you're if you're like me and Derek if you're not dogmatic, you're gonna, it's gonna, red flags go off right away. so let me just read this to them real quick, it says... after they tell the whole story about Demetrius collecting all the books in the habitable world and finding these amazing laws of the Jews that no one's ever heard of yet. he says: "indeed this legislation is full of hidden wisdom entirely blameless as being the legislation of God. for which cause it is Hecateus of Abdara says" there's that citation right there "that the poets and historians make no mention of it nor of those men who lead their lives according to it since it is a holy law and ought not to be published by profane mouths" so wait a minute, Heceteus of Abdara told people that no one's ever heard of these people or their laws because it's so holy that you're not allowed to know about it. why would anyone ever... that sounds like apologetics.

Ammon is visibly holding his nose at the bad smell

Neal: why would anybody ever have to say, "oh by the way the reason why Herodotus in Pindar and and Calimicus and all these people" whoever back you know "Homer has" yeah I'm just throwing people out there Thucydides whatever Xenophon, the reason why none of them ever mention Israel or these laws is because it's so holy that they're not allowed to. what???

Derek: two things come to mind. I don't know if you ... you heard me say this the other night, but I'm saying this for the audience because you and me talk off-air a lot Neil, and that is when I was reading some of these - is it Numeneus and others in the second Century A.D, and there were other Pagan authors and stuff that are crediting, they even are willing to go so far as to say "yeah Plato borrowed from Moses", but there's debates, just like there's debates on who's older, Plato or who copied Plato, or Moses, vice versa. there's also debates between Pythagoras and Plato, and the Pythagorean cult was so secretive, they kind of like they're doing this similar sounding thing, so I kind of wondered if Josephus was pulling some of that Greek Pythagorean apologetic to go "hey we got the to cover up"

Neal: I think there's a reason to believe he really is citing Hecateus in that, I don't think

Derek: why I mean dude but how often does Josephus kind of done some some funny things like you know I don't know the truth the other option is like you're saying is he saying "well it's nowhere" so we have to say "it's because he's so secretive and holy, so here's evidence to suggest". I threw that other idea just in case, because I know that Philo of Alexandria, he's ripping off, like he's going in that Hellenistic world,

Neal: and they're also arguing over Orpheus, you get these Jewish Orphic texts they're called - James Charles Wood calls it the Orphica fragments, it's in his pseudopigrapha volumes and they're like Orpheus was the son of Museus. No! Museus. or Orpheus taught Museus, and they're arguing over which one came first. was it Orpheus or Moses

Ammon presents a fragment - Zeus Hades Helios Dionysis

Ammon: wait Neil I brought one of those fragments. can you bring up one of the fragments? it's it says, it says it's at the end of my presentation tonight, and it's in, it no that's a good that's a good one, keep going, keep going, yeah a little bit, yeah,

look at this guys, look at this

Zeus, Haides, Helios, Dionysis.

Ammon: and that's the oldest form of all of those names is the Dionisos (Διόνυσος) from the Mycenaean. but hey, what does it say, it says there is one God, one Hades, one Helios, One Dionysus, they are one, right? so for your monad stuff, because I know Derek was looking at monad and stuff like that, that's an actual orphic fragment, that Neil is talking about. and if I can just say, that was beautiful tribute that Derek gave. I'll say one sentence: Neil I've known you for long enough to work with you in the Greek, and I'm proud of the work that you're doing, and I know that if I can sharpen you, as razor sharp as it gets...

Neal and Ammon study greek 3 times a week

Neal: three times a week, being Amoan and me for an hour attic Greek. and he's getting, dude, I'm getting more confident as I go and how to read this stuff,

Ammon: if I can get you to the point that you can use that blade as a samurai? we'll take on everybody Kipp, everybody else, we'll take them on...

Neal: I wish you'd be nicer to people, and maybe they'll stay longer.

Ammon: it's the art of the Samurai you gotta love that Muse

Neal: Kipp's a good guy. Kipp's great. and he's not full of shit. I you know, I know, I know, you're, you're getting that way because you get passionate, I know you didn't mean it. live away, but Kipp's a good dude. let's not, you know, I love Kip I'm gonna yeah, that's my boy. anyways thank you for that Super Chat, Pat. and nitty. thank you so much. nitty's been around since the beginning. I met nitty back when I first was like joining those big live streams you used to have, Derek, remember those? we had like

Derek: I know, I'm gonna come back don't worry I'm coming back I just I needed to get in my documentary phase because someone taught me that I should and I did and it's been working. I want to start doing more lives too.

Neal: yeah yeah thank you that thank you nitty and by the way nitty has a channel, go check it out, go and subscribe to nitty. nitty's doing good work too, he's doing great work, I love, I love watching nitty, so thank you nitty, let's see what we got... Ross, Ross, was trying to throw kippa alley-oop so he can slam dunk it on Genesis 9:6 I mean I'm not I'm not the Hebrew guy. so.

Derek: Ross K Nick look this is a perfect plug, this is a perfect plug to mention: we're all gonna be over there, we're going to qumran, you know what I mean, so yeah, Ross is awesome. that guy is so fun to be around. I'm telling you, he's great yeah, by the way.

Ammon: can I ask you can I ask you both a question just one quickie because I you know I may not get this opportunity again as I see you both in the work that you you're doing do you both recognize that you are documenting history, and that you're really doing the work that the academy was supposed to do? do you guys see that you're taking over that role?

Neal: I'm just, I'm just a content creator, I'm not gonna say I'm, I mean this, everyone's doing work I mean this I I you know I should just say I appreciate the compliment I'm on it means a lot from you but I'm not going to sit here and say like me and Derek are doing something no one else is doing or anything like that like

Derek: well Neil I'll I'll put it this way I would not say obviously we're like monetize or what is the best word monopolizing the whole thing I do think that, starting with what I did with mythvision, I pioneered something that really wasn't being done this way. and I've had several people talk about, they did a Jesus seminar, but that fell apart. I'm not talking about what currently is kind of put together, but what we are doing is unique. and it is pioneering a path, and I am noticing now, and it's kind of part of the whole thing, we all went social media online YouTube I am noticing academics are more and more trying to grow their tiktoks, grow their their Facebooks, their Instagrams, and things. they're trying to grow their social media and go into this online path, and that's good, I hope more people will come and start educating and challenging ideas where we have this. this being able to be looked at by the normal typical audience because I'm kind of tired. my problem when I first got into this Neal, I don't know if you feel the same way, is we are reading these volumes that are written, and expensive Publications behind academic, What I Call "Ivory Tower", and then trying to filter that to the public world, the best thing we can do is bring these Scholars and their ideas unfiltered to allow them to educate, and then let the world view this and then hear another position and view this and then hear another position and then let them make up their minds and be educated because I really believe if more people are educated it will create a better world that's my I sincerely believe gnosis and I don't mean it necessarily right I I seriously believe that if people knew then we would not be in the same pickles and problems we deal with on a day-to-day basis

Neal: yeah I mean I mean me and Amoan talk about this for like, imagine if they're, imagine like okay, the Greeks were doing their thing and you know in Athens in 500 BCE you just gotta pick up Demosthenes read his orations and they really value Liberty Equality Justice Democracy, you know over like tyranny and Dogma, dogmatism and superstitions and stuff. like that, they were already at that point and stage in society where they,... and then so imagine that just kept on rolling through throughout the Middle Ages and you didn't have a church that, by the way, they throw a bishop in your hair like, let's say you lived in Germany or something and you're part of the Holy Roman Empire, well the Pope's gonna send out his Bishop, he's gonna sit right next to the king, you're gonna make sure that everyone there is living in a certain cultural way that is okay and acceptable to the church. and that happened for a long time, that's how Society was for a long time.... imagine and that word Episcopos where we get the word Bishop. over here almost like a spy, their job is to make sure everyone's falling in line, and doing making sure and so imagine if we do had this and I'm not just talking about Athens, but I mean like if everybody, if every part of the world had had it, their own cultural Awakening in that way, in that sense where you value Justice and Equality and Liberty and Democracy, just imagine like we probably could be a lot farther along than we are. I'm just saying but whatever I'm just a guy anyways. I don't know why I don't know what I was going with that, but thank you Ross for the Super Chat, go subscribe to Ross Nichols. John Geier, keep killing it Neil. thank you John appreciate you. John's been here, John's one of my first patreon members. so John's an OG. all day thank you John appreciate that. I really do. let's see what else we got I think there's a couple more oh this is the one that I read already "Ammon's always on point sounds a little excited but he's onto something" thank you A.F.D. for that Super Chat someone recommended Hebrew is Greek to me a long time ago, but I never read it you said you haven't read this yet.

Derek: Hebrew is Greek volumes. I'm going to look it up I'll have to check that out sounds interesting

Ammon: Hebrew no, I haven't no, I haven't been into it either. I'll have to check it.

1:47:53

End....

out I I avoided it it just didn't sound to me but here Hebrew is Greek like that's a little but yeah Joseph Yehuda wrote it you shouldn't really judge a book by its cover I guess so no and I did and I never read you know but yeah I also don't know Greek so it's kind of like I'm going in the dark here so yeah you know that's why that's why we get you into the dojo because it it it's it's proof Derek I'm not kidding you it's proof that you can put somebody through a great program and increase their verbal scores on standardized exams you have to the Greek is special and it causes you to do gymnastics that are Anglo-Saxon just can't do so much of our language and and in particular like the Western world comes from etymologies that end up in Greek even though even we'll look at a word like that comes from Latin and then you look back and farther you're like Oh but before Latin it came from the Greek you're like oh expletive so the Greek is like it it's like the the language is like stem from Greek in a lot of ways with people's people say the English has roughly 100 to 120 000 unique words what they call Unique words and what's funny is maybe half of those people have estimated but maybe half of those are based on the Greek so you can see that we ourselves are are very language the way we use English speakers use their linguistic brain is anchored in that in that immense well Derek if I had you for one day I would show you a passage of cult that would still blow your mind I would show you people sitting around you got to ask your Scholars he does that too well before we start before we get because we use this handbook right here let's see Derek I gotta get you into one of our drug there's our textbook there's our textbook see that guys or we even crack this baby open he's always got a text when he wants to show me I want to show people let's see if you can read it I'll try to read it and I'll what does it mean all right let's go to the let's check and it's always some crazy cultic Eleusinian stuff oh gosh yeah yeah they were wild in the ancient day but anyways thank you for oh smashing the patriarchy is another one who watches all three of us and I love her great thank you I appreciate the Super Chat I really do think a very interesting topic it was I you know we gotta figure out a way to plan it out better so it's not going to be so heated you know what I mean but thank you for that super chat sometimes look to put it into perspective too people used to laugh and come to my conferences when I was the London Times said my work was the last wow Frontier of Classics I love to go to conferences to see some guy from Yale get up there and not have the technical expertise and just drag him just drag him down and people used to come they would come and they would they called me Hillman then they were like look look look Hillman's giving his thing I went up against the head guy in medicine at Yale in Kuma in Italy at a conference and John Scarborough walked up to me afterwards and he said oh my God man did you have to slaughter the poor guy like that and I said yeah because I follow the Muse and what you guys are doing is the muse you're following the muse build the museum thank you thank you got to thank you Allen congrats Neil that was nice that was said by Derek it was it's real thank you for both of you let's see what else we got I think I should go expletive we have some more we'll recognized the house again with another 14. peace Neil please show my earlier I just yeah this is probably I'm assuming this was after must be yeah I read I did see it so unless you have three of them this is and then maybe I don't miss it but I don't see any more you know what I'm not used to I'm not used to so many comments like this that because I haven't been live in a while sometimes you miss a couple but this is the last one so thank you everybody I appreciate it this was fun we'll do this again soon and I need less thoughts on this stuff anybody I think I've said enough I might have nothing else to say just keep I don't know everybody has their own interests and one of mine is looking for the mythological stuff I like finding all that it's fun yeah I would just say keep going and help support nil help support what he's doing and yeah man here's to another 10 years of kicking butt and taking names it's only been two so let's slow down on that one time another 10 year old 10 years ago I wasn't in the greatest shape in where I was at so let's let's go let's go two at a time now let's go another two year let's do that I think I think the secret of your success for both of you is that you go back to the sources as somebody who's trained in that way I saw it I saw it from the very beginning and I think you're not giving yourself enough credit and I think you need to realize what you're doing with the population by providing these sources for them you're doing a great service to humanity you're acting as the bacchic Oracle acted you're purifying and I know it sounds that's a lot of huhan that's it's a lot of praise and stuff you talk but that's how you are if you by the way I'm on as a channel I forgot to say this lady Babylon pull it up and this I gotta thank you for that compliment Amon that means a lot I you know however you want to word the mytho through which you're describing I pick up what you're putting down and yeah you know like it's like people who are like you're doing great and like a Christian might say you're doing great and God's on your side I know what they mean even though I don't draw their framework or worldview I'm like oh thanks for the compliment you know but it's like with what you're saying I really think we're doing something for real yeah lady Babylon has a channel he goes deep into the text you know he's I'd say you're you're the one following the Muse if anything you're the you got the museum that's the museum itself over there that channel even my wife let me compliment I'm on here my wife I'll turn it on your excitement is is contagious and and while you're teaching my wife she doesn't get into this kind of stuff like you never see her on myth Vision the queen of mythvision Ryan in case anyone feels disrespected by that she calls me the husband so don't feel bad and and the queen will literally be like I'm not into anything I don't even watch your stuff she'll do it if she has to help me edit but she was listening and Ramon gets excited and he gets into it and it describes and he's like going into the word and he says it with ah and my wife's like who is that guy he's like he's wild but at the same time she's like he's kind of interesting and fun to listen to and she's not bored by it though she makes them entertaining as you get right so passionate about these subjects she's not bored let's put it that way yeah it's never a dull moment when you're live and that's why you get you get as many people as I do coming to watch you when you're live sometimes 100 people right yeah your life and then it ends up being a thousand views every video and you just started yeah yeah that it is Derek did it would can I just say I had this feeling about you when I first started listening to you that there was a superior mind behind you I I I think that could you say it's fair it's my wife so you're not wrong but I can still read them love it she's amazing you got it man you got it seriously though I'm not kidding I mean that like she may not be a nerd like me and you guys but like she really is everything and I don't give her enough credit publicly and I should but I you know I I do get what you're saying and I do appreciate that I also think it's it's necessary that we do give a shout out to Kip can you pull up his YouTube channel because he came on and and I we gotta give we got to give our respects to our boy Davis is doing another he's got he's doing great work let me share the screen he's bringing the Dead Sea scholar Dead Sea scroll stuff he's also critiquing other people on you know who have YouTube channels that are or people who call themselves academics that aren't that he you know he's he's bringing the fire or something he sometimes is like album or he's bringing the you know he's criticizing others who are you know like this one was good David Falcon oh my God you want to sit still and get torn apart do you like that sort of content go watch this or or you know the Michael Jones one was pretty good too that was actually dude that that upset Michael Jones so bad oh well this is this was the best so dude he and yeah this is good stuff you're right I'm glad you reminded me to pull this up because yeah and you're killing it absolutely and I totally recommend go subscribe to Kip go subscribe to moan subscribe to Gnostic performance you'll learn a lot and today you saw two Titans clashing and so I was just not having it it just wasn't it wasn't here to debate and it went South quick and I wish it didn't I do wish I'm owned that it didn't go that way I really do me and Neil feel the same way but yeah I appreciate the show Neil and having me on brother I appreciate you and once Derek before I go I just gotta thank you for everything so that's why I want you to be here so well you can pay me in respect of a check no I'm just kidding I'm starting to live in it maybe next week or something with with you Derek where we we have to explain why everybody who's watching should come to Israel with us oh my gosh I mean it's gonna be worth it like we're I'm hoping and I know that Kip's gonna do this so dude I know that for a fact that if I'm on watched more of Kip's stuff in terms of the criticisms he's bringing to the table you would you would really value him more and more the more you listen but I want to make one comment we're bringing it with that mytho slash critical thinking to this entire trip so it's not going to be a tour that you will ever get from like you go to any tour in Israel and these and go to these places you're gonna get a bunch of hodgepodge of BS and like 4th Century claims onto something in this supposed spot we're not interested in that we want to give you the actual skinny on the situation if you understand what I'm saying we want to give you what we can know and then what is pretty much speculation or later Christian propaganda about these geographical spots things like that so you you really need to join us even if it's just for the fellowship and hanging out and enjoying the company but I love it I loved that trip last time with the James Taylor that was a blast yeah so we'll talk about that more going forward and with that being said that's all and you visiting true gnosis